Tuesday, February 17, 2009

How do you define cheating?

I am a pretty forgiving person, but I am pretty cut and dry on the topic of cheating.

Cheating is something I do not tolerate. Call me unforgiving and rigid, but I have more experience with cheating than I want to, so this has shaped my opinion on the topic.

In my experience: If you're really happy in your relationship, you don't cheat.

When my ex-boyfriend admitted he cheated on me - to help his conscience feel better - I asked why he would do this, especially because I thought we were happy. And he said, "if I had everything I wanted, I wouldn't have had to look elsewhere." Yes. He was a winner.

But some of my guys friends have said, "what do you define as cheating?" And let's look beyond the whole Road Trip movie definition of cheating, being in separate area codes, etc.

Is kissing cheating? Especially if it happens in a bar while intoxicated? You might not have knowingly done it otherwise so it shouldn't count right?

Hmmm, that's a tough sell. It may be misguided but "in vino veritas" has some truth to it. Usually, if I've had too much to drink, I may misbehave but it's because my actions have some element of truth to them. Especially when it comes to guys.

I'm not saying you have to be a saint and never look at another man or woman again, but I almost have to agree with my ex, if you're really happy, you don't cheat, in any way. I also firmly believe in trust in a relationship too and cheating betrays that fundamental trust. Honestly, I don't know if I could ever trust my boyfriend again if he cheated.

For girls, I also adhere very well to the rule of "not dating a friend's ex." I fear I might be one of the few that still do this too after two former friends dated two of my separate exes and told me to "get over it." Maybe this is a bigger issue of attracting the wrong kind of people to me as friends/boyfriends.

I really enjoyed the feedback to my post about living together before marriage so I'm very curious to hear everyone's thoughts about this topic too.

Could you forgive cheating, or have you in the past? If you did cheat, did you tell your boyfriend/girlfriend? Or would you date your friend's ex? Is there ever a gray area in that issue?


Miss Grace said...

I tried to forgive cheating in Gabriel's dad, but it never worked out because I couldn't ever trust him again.

I think that the definition of cheating can be different for different couples, but you both have to be on the same page. (For me kissing is cheating though)

Ray said...

in a HEALTHY relationship (healthy being the key word here) I think cheating is the point where you know (even if it's in the back of your mind) that your partner would be uncomfortable with your actions toward another person. This could be kissing or more, or even less. It is all about trust with me.

Heidi Renée said...

I have never cheated nor been cheated on. Of course, my dating has been pretty limited, so that might explain it. I am pretty liberal with my husband (e.g., I'm fine with strip clubs), but that is because I trust him to never go too far.

Ashley D said...

I have forgiven a boyfriend for cheating before, but I was never really able to trust him again. ultimately, that was one of the reasons we broke up. I define cheating as kissing another person. Even if you are drunk. If you are happy in the relationship, you don't want to kiss other people. It's as simple as that.

Classy in Philadelphia said...

I couldn't forgive a guy for cheating. I am a big fan of also counting emotional cheating as cheating. My ex was totally emotionally (calling, texting, having indepth convos with another girl) cheating on me for a long time before we broke up. It broke my heart everyday. I think it hurt more than the sting of hearing that he actually physically cheated on me (he didn't to my knowledge)

Blaez said...

i define cheating as anything that violates the relationship from talking dirty online to kissing in a bar to oral sex and intercourse.

*if* you are in a bar hanging out with friends and you get intoxicated and you are in relationship you will not cheat on that person or do anything to violate your relationship. however, if you are unhappy with your partner then one just might do something to violate the relationship.

i've been cheated on and i've been the cheater. i am not proud of being a cheater and i did it for the wrong reasons.

i can say this, no matter what i will never cheat on Joe and if I for whatever reason find myself thinking of violating thoughts i'll be up front and honest with him and we'll need to have a talk to make sure we get our relationship back on track.

elle michelle said...

I would want to forgive the cheating, but seeing as I hold a grudge if Dave leaves the toilet seat up, I'm thinking I wouldn't really be able to get past the whole "kissing another woman" thing. Nope. Wouldn't happen.

Kyla Bea said...
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Kyla Bea said...

I'm with Ray, it's when you consciously cross a line that you know your partner has.

I think that, for me, it's just involvement with another person that goes beyond friendship - doesn't have to be physical. I had an ex who went on a weekend road trip with a "friend", lied to me about it, & was all cute with her the whole weekend & shared a room. He also routinely went out to specifically talk about sex with another "friend". Those things crossed a line with me, unquestionably, and his knowing that and doing it was cheating.

Also? When he slept with them that was cheating too.

I think it's a conversation that every couple needs to have. I have friends who have multiple partners all the time - they know about each other and are happy with that arrangement, so for them it's not cheating.

If Mister cheated on me I would probably forgive him, because it's so outside his character. But when my Ex did it? No dice.

MonkeyBusiness said...

I agree with Ray that cheating is "the point where you know (even if it's in the back of your mind) that your partner would be uncomfortable with your actions toward another person"

I guess I also think about it, like what would make ME uncomfortable if the roles were reversed.

From the accountant side of me, I would want to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

I have been cheated on once, in high school (that I know of!) and tried to work through it and just couldn't. I don't think I could ever get past it in any situation.

I totally agree with you that if you're really happy in your relationship, you don't cheat. I've come close to it in the past (in previous relationships) and used to be a huge flirt, but never actually cheated (am HORRIBLE liar, could never cover it up)... but that side of me just stopped when I found Hubs. I don't know, I just would never want to think of him with someone else and have no desire to think of myself with anyone else either!

Maki said...

When you're blindly in love, you would forgive the person who cheats on you - well, I'm talking about my past relationship.. But in the end, I think it's about respecting the other person...

I had this boyfriend who broke up with me because he started to have wondering eyes... He admitted that he's looking around and it wasn't right. He rather broke up with me and be the bad guy than secretly cheating on me behind my back - that's respect and I totally give him the credit for it.

Sometimes though.. dogs are dogs even they say they love their girls. Sad, but true.

alexa - cleveland's a plum said...

with my father screwing any lady that moved prior to my parents divorce it's a very touchy subject for me.

which is probs why i have male trust issues, but that's another comment.

honestly, i don't know if i could forgive a man for cheating but one tends to let a lot of things slide when one is head over heels in love.

ANG* said...

i've "forgiven" in the past...i've also brought it up several times in the following months, resented them and eventually broke up. so i'm gonna go with forgiving boys doesnt work for me. once you break my trust not sure it can ever be fully repaired.

Anonymous said...

I don't really have any experience with cheating, but I personally don't think that being intoxicated excuses anything. Just one more reason not to drink...crazy, I know! :)

In my book, anything that you would not approve of your partner doing with someone else, or anything you would not do with someone in front of you partner is off limits.

Just say no to cheating!

LBluca77 said...

I agree if you are happy in your relationship then you have no reason to cheat. I do think though there are some people that no matter what will always cheat, mostly because they will never know how to be happy in a relationship. Not that it is an excuse to do it but some people are just like that.

bodelou said...

i agree that truly there is no excuse and if you love someone you don't do it.

but at the same time, we are all human and we all fuck up.

my ex, the love of my life cheated on me, and ya know what happened. he dumped me. thats right. i was ready to take him back, forgive him and everything. he didnt sleep with her, just made out, whatever. i was fuming mad, and vowed that i would not forgive him until he made it right, until he was ready to be forgiven. the way i see it, in my deluded messed up brain, he was scared of our relationship and what it meant and so he reacted, thinking it was the easy way out. and in the end i look at him only in pity, because he was so insecure about the way things were. i think one day i will have the opportunity to forgive him and we may be close (while we still are friends of sorts these days we aren't that close) and we may even get together again, but i don't lose sleep over it, because i know its something i would never do, no matter how fucked up things get. but that could be a result of the differences betwn men and women. maturity level.

widget said...
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Andrea said...

I totally agree with you. Cheating should never happen unless you weren't truly happy. Although I wouldn't give up completely on someone that cheated on me, because every situation is different, it shouldn't be happening on a continual basis. Thats just wrong. As for living together before marriage, I think I already commented on that one, but if I didn't I think it's a good idea just to make sure there aren't any underlying issues or deal breakers out there.

Anonymous said...

I agree that if you're perfectly happy in a relationship, you wouldn't cheat. But is not being perfectly happy a reason to give up on the history you share? No one is perfectly happy all the time...

Sometimes, absolutely. Other times, maybe not.

Both mr button and I have cheated in the past (just kissing, which I would totally class as cheating). During a particularly tough year that we never got to see each other. And both of us regret it. But we're really, truly happy now. And I don't feel like either of us were stupid to stay together. We just had to work at things and sort out the issues.

Sorry for the novel. But I find this really interesting. And I find the assumption that taking back a cheater is ALWAYS a bad idea a little bit shallow.

I think it depends on the situation.

Hope said...

I have never been cheated on (at least to my knowledge) and I have never cheated.

I do believe that the definition of cheating is pretty clear cut. And it bothers me that some people do not consider kissing while drunk a form of cheating. Hell, if I had a boyfriend and he went on a date with another woman, I would consider that cheating. So for me, the physical act of cheating is black and white.

But the issue of forgiveness is in the grey area. Because as much as I want to say that I would break up with someone who cheated on me, I don't know if I would. It depends on so many factors. Was it intentional? Is he unhappy? Does he really regret it? How much do I love him? Can we get over something like that or would it forever tarnish the relationship?

As for dating a friend's ex? If he was a serious, long term boyfriend I don't think I could even be attracted to him let alone date him. If he was some guy she dated for two months when she was 15? And I was in love with him? I would consider it. But it would definitely keep me up at night and I really hope I never find myself in that position.

Anonymous said...

I never dated much, so I don't have any experience with people dating your ex, or with cheating for that matter. My boyfriend and I draw the line at kissing someone else. That would be cheating. Some minor flirting is still forgiveable but kissing is not, not even when drunk, because who says you didn't get drunk just to have an excuse for cheating?

Penny said...

Cheating to me is 'anything you do with another person,that you wouldn't want your other half to know about'.

LIke you said,when you are truly happy and content with someone and your relationship,you won't even have the urge to do something,anything,with anyone else.

It's a huge betrayal to be cheated on,so I have a no tolerance policy on it.If he does something so horrible to you,what other little,seemingly unimportant things is he also lying about?I would always wonder.

Lauren said...

I cheated in a previous relationship with the guy I actually wanted to be with. I didn't ever want forgiveness but it was cause I wasn't happy. Neither of those worked out.

As for dating a friend's ex... never had it happen to me but my current partner (of nearly 2 years) was a 'friend's' ex. I put 'friend' because I'd only known her for 4 months but needless to say we do not speak now. I also met my partner before I knew he used to date her. I did feel bad for her until she was very unprofessional with me at work and now I understand why he cheated on her! I think it's different though if you are all in the same group of friends first but sometimes you can't help who you fall for!

erin - heart in ireland said...

I don't tolerate cheating. I was cheated on for 5 months while in a long distance relationship (it is actually an amusing story) and as soon as I found out I broke up with him (as did she) and just listening to his excuses over the phone and how sneaky he was made me sick especially because a long distance relationship is so trust based.

If you drunkenly made out with someone in a bar, I would question it, because it isn't as serious as a relationship or sleeping with, but could be a sign something isn't as happy as it should be, so it would depend then on the situation and the relationship and the kiss.

On dating a friends ex, well it depends on how close of a friend and their relationship. If it was serious and they were one of my best friends, no. But I've gone out with one of my ex's good friends and have had sorority sisters date ex's. I guess because I went to such a small college (1200 students) you knew everyone, so chances were it was a friend's ex.

L.C.T. said...

I've been cheated on and stayed with him for a while, but things weren't the same. I do NOT count being drunk as an excuse.

Going out with a friends ex I'm not sure on. If it's clearly going to hurt the friend I wouldn't, and I'd definitely talk to the friend first. Tough call on that though.

Anonymous said...

I can never forgive anyone for cheating and couldn't stay with them after as the trust would be gone. Trust is the most important thing about a relationship and is the basis of everything to do with your relationship.

Chuck out the cheater and find someone better!!!

Deutlich said...

In my book, cheating is doing ANYthing sexual of any kind with somebody else - from kissing to oral to actual sex.

It disgusts me how many cheaters there really are.

Fabulously Broke said...

Cheating is cheating

If you think that you're cheating or you may be toeing the line, it's cheating.

The Maiden Metallurgist said...

You never forget being cheated in, it's like poison to a relationship. I don't think I could ever get over it.

SoMi's Nilsa said...

To me, there are two kinds of cheating. Physical cheating is obvious - any kind of inappropriate touching. Kissing counts as cheating in my book, unless it's the kind of kiss you'd do with a friend in front of your loved one (like when you say hello/good-bye).

The other is emotional cheating. And you know what, that's almost worse. When your partner feels they cannot share things with you. They cannot confide in you. They get more out of being that kind of intimate with someone else? That's really hard to stomach.

Both, in my book, are virtually impossible to move beyond. Having said that, I think it's different for different people. It might not be as big a deal to move beyond for others.

The Dumbest Smart Girl You Know said...

I've been cheating on, by various degrees (from naughty text messaging to a second relationship in another town), and try-try-tried to forgive and forget. BUT I never could! I was always looking for a sign that something else was going on behind my back, which I always found. "Once a cheater, always a cheater," or was I creating a self-fulfilling prophesy? I'm sure I don't know.

laurwilk said...

I suppose my rule in relationships is 'if I wouldn't do it in front of you, I shouldn't do it.' So that's how I set my boundaries.

However, I have cheated before (and someone has cheated on me). I was very intoxicated, living in Australia and got kissed by a boy who I kind of kissed back. (Truth be told, it's all a bit blurry.) I told him the next day because I felt horrible about it and was really upset. I was not unhappy in my relationship at all. I missed my boyfriend terribly (I was studying abroad) and I know that me kissing some other guy had nothing to do with our relationship and everything to do with me being wasted (and potentially lonely - the verdict is still out on that).

As hard as it was, I respect my ex's wishes to be just that, my ex. It was terrible for me - I was completely heartbroken. But if he wasn't going to be able to trust me again, it clearly wasn't going to work. (The distance was most likely an issue here as well.)

I think forgiveness in relationships is just as important as honesty. It is essential because some really shitty things happen over the course of a lifetime and often times, we make mistakes.

laurwilk said...

I suppose my rule in relationships is 'if I wouldn't do it in front of you, I shouldn't do it.' So that's how I set my boundaries.

However, I have cheated before (and someone has cheated on me). I was very intoxicated, living in Australia and got kissed by a boy who I kind of kissed back. (Truth be told, it's all a bit blurry.) I told him the next day because I felt horrible about it and was really upset. I was not unhappy in my relationship at all. I missed my boyfriend terribly (I was studying abroad) and I know that me kissing some other guy had nothing to do with our relationship and everything to do with me being wasted (and potentially lonely - the verdict is still out on that).

As hard as it was, I respect my ex's wishes to be just that, my ex. It was terrible for me - I was completely heartbroken. But if he wasn't going to be able to trust me again, it clearly wasn't going to work. (The distance was most likely an issue here as well.)

I think forgiveness in relationships is just as important as honesty. It is essential because some really shitty things happen over the course of a lifetime and often times, we make mistakes.

Cheryl said...

Cheating would be a deal breaker to me. Kissing counts, even when drunk. Why let yourself get to that point and like you said, I totally think we mean what we say/do when we're drunk. And yes, people who are happy in a relationship don't cheat. People who are not happy in a relationship should suck it up and either fix it/end it before swapping bodily fluids with someone else.

Lily said...

If I could write this in really tiny letters I would, because I kind of want to whisper it since admitting it to myself sucks.

I'm wrestling with the same question.

Is it cheating (or should it challenge your trust in the other person) if you are still in the new and undefined stages of a relationship?

Is it a breach of trust if you'd never talked about "what you were" and he left for a couple of months and met a girl he connected with, probably kissed a few times, and who wants to keep in touch with him?

When you had no claim to begin with, is it a breach of trust when you thought you were both under the assumption you weren't entertaining the ideas of seeing other people?

This is what I'm wrestling with. And I hate it.

Anonymous said...

I would never tolerate cheating, and I could never do that to someone I loved. But I've always thought it would be interesting to be the other woman. Just to know. Does that make me a bad person?

Anonymous said...

I would never tolerate cheating, and I could never do that to someone I loved. But I've always thought it would be interesting to be the other woman. Just to know. Does that make me a bad person?

Katelin said...

luckily i have never been cheated on, but if it did happen i don't think i'd be able to forgive. i just don't see why people would do it.

Summershoegal said...

I think I couldn't forgive cheating, mostly because of the trust issue
I cheated on a former bf once and I know it was because we weren't really happy! I am not saying that I'm proud I did it! It was a big mistake and I still feel sorry!
For me kissing in a bar when drunk is not really cheating (if it happens once! regularly is another story) but I also think if you know you are easy when drunk, don't drink that much or organize someone who will take care of you!

SA said...

Do I consider kissing and more cheating? Yes. Would I forgive it? I would like to say that I could love someone enough to forgive them, but I honestly have no idea. Maybe kissing is easier to forgive then sex, but if put in the position could I forgive a boyfriend having sex with another person? I don't think I could.

The thing is, I have been the other woman before. It feels like crap, believe me. Should I have a more liberal feeling on cheating because of my past experiences? I don't really know.

Jamie said...

Cheating is a deal-breaker for me. Plain and simple.

Megkathleen said...

I would say never forgive cheating and that includes kissing someone while drunk. But I have been known to forgive in the past - much to my regret. And I am all for the whole you don't hook up with friends' exes rule.

cavy said...

i forgave an ex-boyfriend for cheating, but i wish now that i had stuck to my guns and gotten rid of him at that point. it's now a complete 100% deal-breaker and i haven't had to deal with it since (knock on wood..)

Anonymous said...

I told my hubby a long time ago, if you get drunk and kiss someone in a bar, don't tell me about it. If it goes further, I need to know.
If you have feelings for someone else, I definitely need to know.
I guess that sums up my thoughts on cheating - or at least what I need to know about my partner's actions - so I can then take my own actions (or make my own decisions). But I agree. If you're happy in your relationship, you don't look outside of it for happiness. Or if you're happy with yourself, you at least get out of your relationship first before you look for another. That's just being respectful.

EP said...

I'm not a fan of cheating at all. I didn't trust guys after my parents got divorced, and the first real relationship I had after that was with a guy who ended up cheating on me with his ex, who he told me numerous times was "bat shit crazy."

When I think about it, it still upsets me. If someone is truly happy, they won't cheat. And they will feel comfortable in their relationship so that their partner KNOWS they won't stray.

Rebekah said...

I have nightmares - wake-up-in-a-sweat nightmares - about E cheating again. He swears he did it last time because he was afraid of intimacy and had to give me a reason to hate him and quit making him try. Hmph. Well, THAT worked.

But when we got back together, it killed me to know that he actually dated that girl for a bit. You rpoved your point, dude, so why do you have to stick with her at all? He LIKED her and I hate that. Drove me insane, still kind of does. I've forgiven him, but it's like my subconscious can't forget when I'm sleeping.

Ellegant said...

You have a great blog here! I look forward to reading more of your posts.

As far as cheating goes, it is a tough call. I've has suspicions of being cheated on in the past, and have mistakenly and regretfully cheated also, but I think because I've been in both shoes, I know I couldn't let it go. It's inexcusable - and if you're looking for something else, you should walk away before dipping your toes in someone else's pool.

Kate said...

There is so much of a gray area when it comes to cheating. I think every situation is different and you have to base things on how long you've been together and what actually transpired. Was it kissing? Full blown sex? Is this someone you just started dating or someone you've been with for years? Obviously, I don't condone cheating, but if you're in a long-term relationship I think it's worth trying to figure out why someone has cheated to see if the relationship is worth continuing.

Anonymous said...

Cheating is just another form of materialism. So when you waste your money on purses, or Grey Goose martinis, or anything that results in massive credit card debt, that's cheating on your future husband and children. You're taking food out of their mouths, and clothes off their backs.

So maybe you all should stop worrying about whether your boyfriends are playing vaginal finger-puppets with your sorority sisters in some bar, and start worrying about being a consumerist birdbrain who reads chick lit and thinks it's "cute" to be helpless when it comes to money.

Court said...

I think cheating is pursuing something emotionally with someone or physically. Doesn't matter how many times, etc.

Rule of thumb, don't do anything you wouldn't do knowing they were with you or could be watching.

Dated a friends ex - maybe a gray area here though, as I tried to maintain a friendship with her (friend) for almost a year, but finally it seemed she didn't want to be friends. It was not until well after that I dated her ex. So it wasn't like she was an active friend...

Court said...

Oh...also have been cheated on. No room for that, so he went to the curb.

Lily said...

I tend to think that if you wouldn't want to tell your partner about what you did, then it's cheating. That means that if you had a sexually-charged conversation with an old flame and didn't tell your partner, then, by default, you cheated on him/her.

That said, I can pretty much forgive cheating (short of real sexual intimacy)...once. If they slip once and realized how much I meant to them and how much they had to lose, then we could work on it. But it would be a long hard road to gain my trust back, that's for sure.

On another note...hi. I kind of stalk your blog and I've never introduced myself. I'm a blog stalker at work. But I'm not one of those creepy ones, I swear lol. Anyway, I enjoy your blog thoroughly. Keep up the good work!

Miss Marie said...

I've been cheated on multiple times and I cheated once. I'd been cheated on multiple times by the man I cheated on. It was just my way, I think of making him feel what he'd made me feel. Also, the relationship was not working and I had found my soul mate. I'm with the guy I cheated with now and it's an amazing relationship.

I think cheating includes having feelings for someone. If my boyfriend/husband/etc kissed some girl at a bar or anywhere or when he was drunk who was just a meaningless girl, I think I'd be upset but it wouldn't be a dealbreaker.

If he kissed someone (drunk or not) that he had feelings for, that would be a big issue. I've told Mr. Beagle (my current main man) that if he ever cheats on me, it's instantly over. I was in a relationship for 7 years with a man who cheated on me multiple times and I never want to be in a situation like that again.

Anonymous said...

I read your post and I am new to reading this blog.

My boyfriend of 6.5 years cheated on me when I was a junior in college and living abroad in Paris. We have been together for a year. When I came back I found out about it. Honestly, if I were a stronger person then I don't know if I would have tried to forgive him. But I did. I am happy I did because we both worked really hard to rebuild the trust in our relationship. Having said that, forgiving him was the hardest thing I have EVER done (and I lived through a 10 year long custody battle and eventually chose my mother which I knew would make my father leave-- we have not spoken in 14 years).

I love my boyfriend with all my heart and I know he feels the same way. We have grown together, into our adult lives and plan to be married after he finishes his masters. Had I not forgiven him, I wouldn't have all that I have now. It was worth all the work and tears.

Then again there are time that cheating can not be tolerated, such as in a marriage. My best friend was married for two years and came to found out when her husband was traveling for business he was going back to his country of origin and had a whole other family there-- she filed for divorce and took everything he had (scum bag).

Ultimately, my boyfriend and I learned that we hadn't been communicating well. And now we know how to tell each other when we aren't happy and we know ourselves well enough to know what makes us happy so we can tell the other person.

If you do forgive... do not expect it to be easy... But each situation has to stand on its own.

NinxyPrincess said...

Can someone help me?

I had met a guy back in 2006. We had the best relationship ever. At the beginning of 2008 he asked to move our relationship on by starting a family and moving in together. I fell pregnant in Feb 2008.

Over that time he became increasingly less interested in me as I got bigger, but I also I felt that he just didn't want to be with me. I remember going to work everyday and crying because I was so worried about my future.

Eventually I sold my funky apartment and we bought a new house together. For some reason though, he was still real cold towards me. Just after giving birth, I felt so horrible and disgusting just with how my body was, then to make it worse, he was really distant with me.

I found out about 6 weeks after birth that the whole time I was pregnant, he was sending very sexual texts to an old "hook up". Also I found out that when I was 34 weeks pregnant, he went out on the town and kissed another girl - I think that he even wanted to go home with her but didn't. He also left his facebook page open one day and I saw all these emails with other girls where theres constant flirting etc.

Since this has all come to ahead (just a few weeks ago) he has sincerely apologised and said that he was so scared about becoming a Dad and committed partner. He really wants to make it work and become a happy complete family. He said he has realised how hurt I am and that his behaviour is totally unacceptable. He said that he really wants to be a good partner and father to our baby.

Although I would like to believe him, a big part of me can't get past all the hurt I have felt and not sure if he can remain completely faithful - ie no more flirting. I have never felt so empty and hurt as I do now. The pain hurts so much that I can't put it into words. I have been through SO MUCH and gave so much of myself to carry his child - I've really hit a bump here - one part of me would love to believe him and move on, the other side of me says that I deserve so much more and to have self respect - If I am understanding everyones view here... "once a cheater, always a cheater?"

HELP ME PLEASE??? I would appreciate peoples thoughts - Ninxy

Anonymous said...

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